Mastering Cannabis Storytelling/How to Talk to Your Kids About Cannabis ft. Jordan Isenstadt

Mastering Cannabis Storytelling/How to Talk to Your Kids About Cannabis ft. Jordan Isenstadt

Jordan Isenstadt: There's a real opportunity for this generation of parents to change the narrative. I mean, I have to imagine — I know it's different times and information flow is totally different — but I wonder what parents in like the '30s said to their kids after prohibition of alcohol. Bryan Fields: What's up guys, welcome back to another episode of The Dime. I'm Bryan Fields, and with me as always is Kellan Finney. This week we've got a very special guest, Jordan Isenstadt, Senior VP at Marino. Jordan, thanks for taking the time, how are you doing today? Jordan Isenstadt: Doing great, guys, thanks for having me. Big fan of the show, and it's a pleasure to be here, and to be friends with you guys — I think we've had some good times together, so looking forward to continuing the good times on the pod today. Bryan Fields: Absolutely, looking to dive in, and it's nice to have another New Yorker here. Kell, don't even try — Kellan, how are you doing? Kellan Finney: I'm doing good. I had no angle — we spent the first five minutes talking about Long Island traffic, so East Coast is coming in hard. I'm excited to talk to Jordan though, should be a really good episode. Bryan Fields: Yeah, I'm doing great, excited to talk to Jordan — we've got a couple hot topics here to dive into, some really important ones that I think aren't commonly discussed but may become a little more popular over the next few months. Jordan, for our listeners, can you give a little background about yourself and how you found your way into the cannabis space? Jordan Isenstadt: Yeah, absolutely. My name is Jordan Isenstadt, native New Yorker, grew up on Long Island. Right after college I jumped into government service — I worked for two New York state senators, State Senator Toby Ann Stavisky out in Queens, and then State Senator Liz Krueger in Manhattan. I didn't really realize it at the time, but when I was working with Senator Krueger, one of the things she was doing was sponsoring one of the early medical cannabis bills. I had no idea at the time that would end up being a key part of my future, but I'll pause there. I got the chance to work for Senator Krueger for many years, worked on a number of campaigns, went to a PR firm called Edelman and started to learn the tricks of the trade from the agency side. Then went back into government and worked for two governors — Governor Eliot Spitzer and Governor David Paterson. We could probably do a whole episode on that tenure alone, because Governor Spitzer was a prominent New York attorney general who became governor, was going to change things up, run for president, be the first Jewish president — very exciting when I got that job — and then he went down in a prostitution scandal, and some of my dreams in my 20s went out the door. Got to work for Governor David Paterson as well, his successor, also a really interesting experience — the first African-American governor in New York. That sort of ended my government service; I decided I wanted to go from the inside to the outside and see what else I could do. I went to a nonprofit called the Association for Better New York, where I got to learn about the business sector, the nonprofit sector, government, and how it all works together — how the sausage is made. After that I took a short stint with an Australian digital learning company called Ducere, where I learned to work remotely and globally and became much more entrepreneurial. Then I arrived at Marino about eight years ago. Initially my role was to take over the higher education and labor unit — I had experience in both sectors. After about a year I felt there was some bandwidth; I'd always been a big fan of cannabis. It was around 2017, the early days of New York's medical program. I went to get a medical card and thought, this program needs PR, this industry needs PR, at least from the East Coast side. It's been an amazing ride ever since — we've grown a national, award-winning cannabis PR and marketing practice. We've worked with some of the largest MSOs in the world, single-state operators, brands, cultivators, processors, retailers. We've been very involved in both the New York and New Jersey markets and the adult-use rollout, working with many of the major players in both states. We also work with a lot of ancillary companies on the national front, like Dutchie and LeafLink. It's a growing industry — from a PR perspective it's really the only industry I can think of where we're working with something growing in real time. It's great to be part of something from the ground up. Bryan Fields: So you're at Marino in the early days, working in the higher education division, and you have this idea that cannabis needs PR. How did that conversation go initially — 'hear me out' moment? Jordan Isenstadt: I give a lot of credit to the Marino family, the founders and leadership of the firm. Back in 2017 I'd describe us as being a little more conservative; people who'd been at Marino for years were in a state of shock when I brought this and it actually bore fruit. What I did was I knew nothing about the cannabis sector — I knew a lot about smoking weed, about the plant personally, but very little about the industry. So I went and started to learn. I learned what an MSO was, I started looking at the New York program — at the time there were just ten medical operators, five from the first class and another five added. I learned about Columbia Care, Acreage, GTI, Curaleaf — all new names to me. I put together a deck about all these companies and the capital flowing through them — at least on paper it looked like a lot of money was flowing — and it was exciting and hopeful. I said, here's where I think the opportunities would be. We're a PR firm at heart, but we do all types of marketing, social, digital — I saw PR as our entry point and figured we'd work out the rest from there. We had a big meeting with leadership, I presented the deck, and everyone was intrigued by the concept of getting into legal cannabis. It made sense for me to run it since I was personally a fan. Part of my plan was I needed to get out there, pound the pavement, meet people, because I knew no one. We had a fortunate break early on — one of our primary longtime clients at Marino is McDonald's, and the former head of government relations there had just left and gone to a company called PalliaTech, which became Curaleaf. This was early 2017, we were just kicking the tires, and Ed Conklin from Curaleaf — PalliaTech at the time — came to us and said, you guys did great work for McDonald's, can you help us? We need our website redone. We did that project. Then we needed government relations materials — did that. Eventually we became the corporate PR firm for PalliaTech, which then became Curaleaf and went from five states when we started to nineteen states by the pandemic. That all started by chance — serendipity played a role, but we were ready, we were studying, and we took that moment and expanded outside of Curaleaf too, which set us on the path to where we are today. Kellan Finney: I'm always fascinated by the internal discussions when a client comes to you and says, 'Jordan, I'm looking for X, Y, and Z' — PR and marketing sometimes get lumped into the same category but the responsibilities and expectations are really different. Is it a give and take when a client comes to you wanting to accomplish X and you suggest Y? Jordan Isenstadt: Clients come to us asking for a mixed bag of things and aren't sure what the tactics should be. Our expertise is in earned media — there's earned, owned, paid, and social, the PESO model. Earned media is our specialty. That's trying to get media outlets — podcasts, print, broadcast, radio — to cover our clients without paying them, as compared to an ad, where the client pays the outlet. With earned media there's validation and credibility that comes with it compared to an ad. The truth is, if you're looking for new customers, B2B or B2C, you probably need all of it — earned, paid, and owned (your website, blog, social media). The question is the right balance. In cannabis, because of federal prohibition, there's less you can do from a traditional marketing standpoint — regulations differ state to state, publishers differ market to market, Google is its own beast. That's what makes PR and earned media so important in cannabis — one of the most viable options to get attention to your brand. But clients often just say 'we need marketing' without understanding the distinctions. We can help with all of it, but our historic heart is PR and earned media. Kellan Finney: The reason I asked is because aligning expectations with success is so critical — if a client expects sales and you deliver earned media placements, there can be a disconnect. Jordan Isenstadt: Right, PR and earned media don't always immediately lead to sales — it's cumulative. If you're doing PR, you also need to be doing marketing, have a great website, a great social feed, and engage with influencers. One frustrating thing in PR is it's hard to draw a direct correlation between an article hit and sales — it's one piece of the pie. But we'd argue that in cannabis it's an outsized slice of that pie. Kellan Finney: The way I think about it is when you see 'as seen in' on a website — New York Times, Vice, Forbes, Wall Street Journal — that's earned media, and it's a validation touchpoint that builds comfort with a brand. But another area where PR is extremely beneficial is messaging, because cannabis carries stigmas — it's not a normal product like McDonald's you can just advertise without issue. Messaging is critical given the diversity of customers. Jordan Isenstadt: One hundred percent. PR is also about storytelling. A big part of what we do with any client, usually in the first few weeks of an engagement, is build a strategy based on a narrative and a story. Everyone in cannabis has a unique and interesting story, and people are looking for authentic connection to authentic brands. It's critical we work with clients to figure out their story and how to best disseminate it — key messages we repeat across different outlets, sometimes with a slightly different angle. Compared to other PR practices, cannabis PR is part of an overall mission of normalizing and destigmatizing cannabis — through stories like a cannabis lawyer who's a mom doing amazing things, a couple who met through the legacy market and now own a dispensary, or a certified ganjier working with a former grocery chain CEO to build a unique cannabis store. Every client has special sauce, and the mission is to get people to recognize the legitimacy and utility of cannabis and continue destigmatizing it. Bryan Fields: When you bring new clients in and start understanding their story, is it like — hey, let's grab drinks, get them warmed up? What's the playbook for authentic interaction with a new client? Jordan Isenstadt: Every client is different — you've got to read the vibe, read the room. It's like dating. Early on I signed a New York City client planning to apply for an adult-use dispensary. I went to his CBD store, we went to the back room, I had the contract before he signed it, he rolled a joint, we broke bread, got to know each other, then he signed, and we went into the storytelling meeting where he told me his background — like discovering as a teenager he was allergic to alcohol, getting very sick when friends offered him alcohol, then discovering cannabis and all the amazing things it did for him. That's an example of a meeting where we got to the story over a joint or a bong rip. Some clients it's a Zoom call if they're not local; some come into the office. We've been working with a lot of dispensary owners lately, so we'll go to the dispensary even if it's a construction zone, because we want to feel them out, get the vibe, learn who they are. You have to get into their brain — especially because we're often writing statements or op-eds on their behalf, so we need to learn how they think and put words together that sound authentically like them. The first few weeks are critical. PR is a partnership — sometimes clients tell us a bunch of stuff and say 'now just make stuff happen,' but that's not how it works. The best partnerships have a constant flow of information — regular calls, texts, ideas going back and forth. You need a willing partner who's ready to give you the information to build the campaign, otherwise it feels hollow. Kellan Finney: It's got to be such a challenging balance — some individuals have been hesitant to share details in the past, then you need to bring them to the forefront and craft a story that's clear and emotion-evoking. In New York, since the market is brand new, people are making first-time decisions on which dispensary or brand to choose, and sometimes it comes down to the story — packaging, color, font, or the wording on the back that connects, like a family farm that's been growing for generations. Those small details require back-and-forth partnership that people don't always recognize as intricate to success. Jordan Isenstadt: Clients come in all shapes and sizes. Corporate cannabis is a very different animal than some of the players we deal with in New York now. Having worked with Curaleaf, Ayr Wellness, and other larger players, it's really corporate PR — you just happen to be selling weed — and most of those folks have had C-suite experience elsewhere, so they get the marketing apparatus. The challenge comes with smaller, newer players. In New York specifically, because of how the program was structured, the first store owners were largely justice-involved, social equity licensees from the legacy market — some in it thirty years, some until just last year. Those more recently in the legacy market are used to operating in the shadows, not talking about themselves, so getting them to talk openly about selling weed, building a team, their tech, their lease — it's a hump to get over and takes time. Some jump on it quickly, some need training — that's a big part of what we do, meeting the client where they're at. Some need minimal media training; some are raw and need real shaping, even though they all have an authentic story — it's about giving them the right words. Some clients need step-by-step written messaging, and some will put messaging together but probably never read it. Bryan Fields: Another topic that's a first for so many people is cannabis and parenting. I think that topic is about to get blown open — there are a lot of firsts happening. As the stigma continues moving in the right direction, parents and society need to figure out whether this is on par with alcohol, whether it's fair and safe, and where the conversation goes. Jordan Isenstadt: Great question, and I have a complicated context for the answer. Personally, I first tried cannabis in the mid-'90s, at 15, at summer camp — not saying anyone should do that, that's just my origin story. I came home and told my dad I'd tried it and liked it, and he said, 'We'll get some and sample it together.' So I had a very open parent. A couple years later my mother, who was divorced from my dad, also caught wind of it, and by college I was sampling with her too. Now as a father, I have a 12-year-old and an 8-year-old — really interesting ages, because my 8-year-old doesn't really understand what I do, but my 12-year-old does; she knows kids come into middle school with vapes, hears things, and hears me talk about cannabis since I work from home half the week. She's asked me questions, and I've settled on telling her cannabis is a plant, it's for wellness, and we can talk more when she's older — though I'll probably have to massage that line soon. What's different about my childhood versus my kids' is they're growing up in a world where cannabis is state-legal in a way prior generations never experienced. We're in a weird golden age where my kids ask 'what's that smell' in New York City, or 'why is Rick and Morty in there' referring to illicit stores. I'm trying to show them the more responsible side. Part of normalizing and destigmatizing is moving away from stoner iconography; illicit stores will eventually shut down, and we need to think of cannabis less like alcohol in terms of bodily impact, but similarly as a regulated, age-gated product. Data shows legal cannabis usually decreases minor usage because it becomes less interesting once it's legal. I've thought about writing a children's book on how to talk to your kids about cannabis — a half-baked idea, but someone needs to do it. We need proactive, responsible conversations, not scare tactics, especially since things like kids getting into parents' gummy stashes are a real, sporadic issue. I've wondered if gummies as a formulation even make sense for a household with kids — maybe it should just be pill form, since gummies feel too kid-friendly. Kellan Finney: Gummies clearly sell well for cash flow, but they're also easy for kids to eat since kids love candy. Given that, should parents proactively approach the topic at a certain age, like with cell phones, or wait for the kid to bring it up? Jordan Isenstadt: I'm in a unique position where it's an unavoidable conversation in my household. I do think middle school — sixth, seventh, eighth grade — is when kids start learning from peers and from their phones. So proactive conversation is probably the way to go, though you also have to know your kid and how they'll react. It might make sense to bundle it into a broader conversation about alcohol and being responsible with substances, what they are, their impact on the body, and what peers might be saying. Knowledge is power. This is a unique moment — some kids' parents will completely ignore it, some will proactively address it, maybe even consume with their kids like my parents did with me. I look fondly on those early experiences with my parents; it showed me it could be handled safely and responsibly — don't drive after, etc. There's a real opportunity for this generation of parents to change the narrative, though I don't know what parents in the '30s said to their kids after alcohol prohibition ended — maybe there are interesting parallels worth exploring. Bryan Fields: I think you made a ton of really good points, and there's a fine balance. It reminds me of the DARE program in school — them telling me how bad it was actually encouraged me more than deterred me. If they'd spoken more about responsibility, like you said, it would help define what's normalized and expected. A lot of people experienced alcohol, crossed the line into too much, and learned boundaries the hard way. There's also the 'it's five o'clock somewhere' mentality — we've normalized alcohol to the point people casually grab a drink after work. I wonder if cannabis — a joint, a THC beverage, an edible — could follow a similar pattern for stress relief, except it's more discreet since there's no visible drink involved, which might prolong that period of normalization. Either way, there's no single right answer, but being honest and helping define boundaries might improve on what the previous generation did with us. Jordan Isenstadt: That's a great point — DARE, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, those programs — our generation dealt with learning that as kids, and now we're here with our own kids growing up in a world where cannabis is legal. It's our opportunity to change the narrative — parent comes home, instead of pouring a whiskey, grabs a cannabis beverage or edible. Kellan Finney: Do you think schools should play a role in that conversation? Jordan Isenstadt: I'd love to think schools should play a role, but I don't really know what that would look like — I'm not sure what a school's programming on alcohol even consists of beyond 'don't drink and drive.' I don't know if schools can have a formal role there; I think it's really on the parents. Bryan Fields: It's a fascinating conversation. I think continued education and helping people learn the differences and boundaries will allow for healthy conversations and honesty, so kids growing up understand responsible decision-making is critical as an adult, whether it's alcohol, cannabis, or another substance. Jordan Isenstadt: One hundred percent, it's all about responsible use — having a lock box, keeping it stowed away, not driving after consuming, being a model for your kids that you can consume responsibly, much like with alcohol. Right now there's still a lot of talk about cannabis and fentanyl and other scary myths, and that was the problem with DARE and MADD — scare tactics don't work. We need to move away from scare tactics and be real — this is part of the world, people consume these products. Cannabis sales recently eclipsed alcohol sales in the news — that's the paradigm we're living in now. It's about promoting responsible use. Bryan Fields: I agree, and it's case by case. Growing up, I knew kids whose parents wanted their first beer to be with them, teaching responsible drinking, and other parents took the opposite approach — you can't say one option works better across the board, it depends on knowing your kid. Jordan Isenstadt: I have some European family, and that's what I was thinking too — they start drinking at like 14 there. That's how you destigmatize it, it becomes normalized, like having wine at dinner and then you're done. Whereas my own cannabis origin story felt so wrong — smoking out of an apple in the woods, then coming home and not being able to say anything, when really I'd have loved to just tell my dad. If it were normalized like a beverage at dinner, it wouldn't have to be a big deal — that's the future we need to get to. Bryan Fields: I got caught smoking cannabis in high school, Jordan, and my parents decided I needed to take weekly drug tests for the rest of high school. Jordan Isenstadt: That's one way of doing things. Bryan Fields: We can have a conversation like that offline. Slightly switching gears, Jordan — dream smoking session, three people, dead or alive? Jordan Isenstadt: I've been thinking about this one for a while. I'm a big Mets fan, 1986 was my team, so I'd put Dwight 'Doc' Gooden in my rotation. I'd put George Washington, because he grew hemp and I think he was smoking weed. And my late father, who I was talking about earlier — I'd do anything to smoke another joint with him. So Doc, George, and Gary — those are my picks. Bryan Fields: What is the most expensive lesson you've ever learned? Jordan Isenstadt: I spent many years working in government with a vision that I'd work in government my whole career and change things from the inside — I had political ambitions, wanted to work in the White House, maybe run for office. Seeing the slowness of government, at a certain point I had to hang it up. The expensive part is I spent about a decade on low government salaries before finally getting to the private side. I concluded I was better off working from the outside to influence things, and the cannabis work has really shown that a lot can be done from the outside. Bryan Fields: True or false — you take part in a secret meeting of the minds on the Monday of MJBizCon every year? Jordan Isenstadt: True statement, for the last two or three years running, soon to be three. This handsome crew gets together over espresso martinis at some point in the evening in Las Vegas on the Monday, and it's a great way to get things started. Our secret's out now. Bryan Fields: Prediction time — what event or moment would signify that cannabis stigma is no longer here? Jordan Isenstadt: It has to be federal legalization. Rescheduling is important, a step in the right direction, an acknowledgment of medical utility, but it won't change most hearts and minds — most people won't even know about it. Safe banking will be a big moment, when banks can accept cannabis cash. But until federal prohibition policy changes, I don't think we'll ever be at full normalization. Kellan Finney: I agree with everything Jordan said, but for me the biggest moment will be when a Wells Fargo or Bank of America actually invests significant capital into one of the larger entities — because all these other milestones are steps toward the industry operating as a normal American capitalist business with access to financial institutions. Bryan Fields: I'm in alignment with both, but I think the more culturally defining moment will be the Super Bowl — the moment you see a weed commercial during the Super Bowl. There'll be shock initially, but momentum will build after that, because people will realize it's normal, the old stigma and messaging were wrong, and the industry can grow from there. Jordan Isenstadt: You both make great points. Banking is one of the biggest barriers to the industry's success, so banks investing will be huge. As for the Super Bowl, a couple companies have tried to get cannabis ads in and it hasn't happened yet, but this past Super Bowl there was a non-NFL-affiliated cannabis consumption event our client Dutchie was involved with. It's coming, baby steps — I think we're probably five to ten years away from some of that. Bryan Fields: Sooner, I hope — I've been on record with predictions for years, and it's always 'five years.' Kellan Finney: What would make it for Bryan is Aaron Rodgers and the New York Jets winning the Super Bowl with a cannabis ad airing during the game. Bryan Fields: I'm going to try to speak that into existence right now. Jordan Isenstadt: I don't know if you're a Jets fan — he's becoming a football fan, a transitioning football fan. I've told you my football story with my son — it's awesome as a parent to impart things on your kids, but in this case my son got into football and taught me football; I was never into it before. So my football allegiance is weird — he's a Packers fan, so I'm a Packers fan, which makes no sense given my Jets/Mets New York roots. And remember, Snoop Dogg smoked weed on camera at the Super Bowl a couple years ago during the big hip-hop halftime showcase, so people don't expect as big a shock from someone like him. Bryan Fields: Jordan, if our listeners want to get in touch, want to learn more, and need help with PR, where can they find you? Jordan Isenstadt: You can find us at Marino's website, the email is cannabis@marino.com, and you can find me on LinkedIn — Mr. Isenstadt. That's the social channel I use most, and a lot of what I post there showcases our latest and greatest hits and accomplishments for our clients. Bryan Fields: Awesome, we'll link it in the show notes. Thanks for taking the time, this was a lot of fun. Jordan Isenstadt: Thanks, Bryan.