The Secrets of Global Cannabis Smuggling with Kingpin Barry Foy

The Secrets of Global Cannabis Smuggling with Kingpin Barry Foy

Kingpin Barry Foy: The next thing I know, we've got a fleet of boats and crews and people all over the world doing cannabis business. It started with humble beginnings and ended in a fairly massive scale. Bryan Fields: What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of The Dime. I'm Bryan Fields, and with me as always is Kellen Finney. This week we've got a very special guest, Kingpin and founder of Gentleman Smugglers, Barry Foy. Barry, thanks for taking the time. How you doing today? Kingpin Barry Foy: Good, man. It's really — it's gonna be fun to talk with you guys. I've listened to some of y'all's podcasts, y'all kind of dive deep, and that's what it takes to learn about this business. It's a very complicated one. So yeah, this is gonna be fun. Bryan Fields: Yeah, excited to dive in, especially with your story and its long heritage. Kellen, how are you doing? Kellen Finney: Doing really, really well. Excited to talk to Barry, excited to talk about East Coast cannabis back in the day and today as well. Kellen Finney: Yeah, I'm just excited. Bryan, how are you doing? Bryan Fields: Yeah, I'm excited. I'm glad, Kellen, we got right to it. Barry has origins on the East Coast and is currently on the East Coast. So Barry, quickly — East Coast, West Coast — if you had to choose a coast, which one are you choosing? Kingpin Barry Foy: Well, we looked at the West Coast — of course we're talking about the white market — and we looked at California, a little crowded, a lot of competition, a mixed-up market so to speak. We looked at Colorado, another busy market. So we're East Coast right now. We do have a possible deal going out in New Mexico, of all places, with some folks in Roswell, right down Alien Alley — an interesting place, but that hasn't been completed yet, we haven't put ink to paper, but it's very close. We love Mass. Massachusetts doesn't have the roots that California and Colorado have as far as longevity in the market yet, so it was a place we thought about long and hard. We looked at other states, but I'm an East Coast man right now. Love it. Bryan Fields: Love it, love it. Barry, typically when we dive in I ask guests to describe how they got into the cannabis industry and if there were any hesitations — but given your unique history, I'd prefer we do it differently. In one sentence, can you describe Gentleman Smugglers — how big the organization was, and the goal, or how it started? Kingpin Barry Foy: It started in the early '70s, and the goal was just to get the plant to folks in need. I started out selling to a lot of GIs shipped out to Vietnam in the early '70s, and that's how I got my start. One thing led to another as it evolved into tons and tons of cannabis. It grew as people's attitudes changed through the '70s — a cultural revolution — and people loved cannabis. It was a natural fit for me with my background dealing with people on a small level, and I love working with the people I worked with over the years. It was a simple way I got into it, and I just kept climbing that ladder, and the next thing I know, we've got a fleet of boats and crews and people all over the world doing cannabis business. It started with humble beginnings and ended in a fairly massive scale. Bryan Fields: Can you give some context when you say massive scale, just for our listeners? Kingpin Barry Foy: The government says we were up around 200 tons of cannabis, and maybe 50, 60, or 70 tons of hash from Lebanon. I'd say global, in the end, before the feds finally caught up with us — massive amounts, tractor-trailer loads, large ship loads. But looking back, it was always: we never had enough. Not like today's competitive illegal world — people were always asking when the next trip or load was coming. We had hundreds of people working for us, and a constant, thirsty demand kept us going. It was exciting — four or five federal agencies chasing you, a cat-and-mouse game — it started to feel like an adventure more than a business. We were making people feel better even though we didn't fully know back then how strains, terpenes, and cannabinoids ease certain ailments — we knew it subconsciously. There was always high demand, never enough. No regulations back then — we were the sheriff, we made our own rules, we were our own dispensaries, no stickers, no security checking IDs twenty times. It was relatively easy, and a lot more fun — daring, breaking the rules. Today is very regulatory, follow the rules — it's been an adjustment for me. Bryan Fields: How has your personal relationship evolved with the plant since the '70s to nowadays? Kingpin Barry Foy: I was a user very early on and I'm still a user today. Today's strains are much stronger than the '70s and '80s — every few weeks somebody's hit a higher THC count, 40, high 30s. Products today are stronger and last longer, and research has come a long way. I'm more of a nighttime toker now — I don't smoke much in the daytime anymore, I like good sleep. If I partake at night after dinner, I know I'll sleep well, and at my age that's important. I've burnt both ends of the candle for a long time, so I use cannabis mainly to get eight or nine hours of rest, and it works great. Kellen Finney: Just going back to the story — how did you develop trust with suppliers, especially internationally, knowing there has to be a handshake understanding between parties — 'this is my intention, and if this goes well, I'll keep coming back.' Is that the origin of it? Give us specifics on how that formed. Kingpin Barry Foy: You have to have trust, and both entities want to make money in the end — we wouldn't be doing this in the white market today, and we didn't do it in the black market back then, without the end result of making money. The people in Colombia, Jamaica, or Lebanon knew that if we were successful and did our part, they'd be successful too. Money was a binding part of the transaction, along with getting to know the people you worked with. We became tight — we were transferring millions of dollars, handling a lot of money, and trust was built. I was lucky — I don't have bad experiences with my connections back in the day, it was smooth. I was particular about who I associated with, so we vetted people closely, especially out of Colombia and Jamaica — Lebanon was a bit of a different story. That's rolled over into today with us in Massachusetts — people accept the legacy market, and our brand is built on adventure and history. We didn't get here without a lot of suffering — people are still in prison today for this plant. I was fortunate in my connections — call it luck, or preparation meeting opportunity — there were like-minded people back then, as there still are in the black market on the West Coast. California took over the smuggling role when the feds cracked down; smuggling pot pretty much ended in the later '80s, and California gradually became the mass producer instead. I'm glad we're where we are today, but we need to expose the government's role — it's troubling that people are still in jail for the plant in states where it's now legal. Bryan Fields: The reason I asked about trust is that in your past it was paramount, and as you've progressed to the legal market, reading people is still critical — because when a consumer reaches for your brand, there's trust behind that name. Assessing risk early on, were there opportunities where you passed on suppliers or countries because you felt it wasn't good for you, or too many failure points? Kingpin Barry Foy: That's a question I never really had to think about, because my connections were always rock solid — I was fortunate in how that went. It's actually more difficult for me to navigate the regulatory world today than it was to navigate with partners back in the smuggling days — it's more tricky and complicated. Everything about the cannabis business is emerging — there's no Bible to follow to success. I was always lucky in my connections, and people love the story we bring, especially here in Mass, so I've been fortunate and blessed in that area. Bryan Fields: Earlier you mentioned that in the early days supply wasn't an issue because everyone was always looking for more — it's a bit different now. How challenging is it managing supply and quality today versus the '70s? Kingpin Barry Foy: In the '70s and '80s there were maybe four or five strains total — Colombian Gold or Santa Marta Gold, Lamb's Bread from Jamaica, Lebanese hash, maybe Mexican bricks and Panama Red or Thai sticks. It's much more complicated today with sorting, sampling, and figuring out the right product for people who entrust you to get it right — people are far more conscious of particular strains and preferences now. Pricing has changed too — back in the day there was very little competition; if I brought in 30,000-40,000 pounds, I'd have my money back in a month and a half or two months. Today, dispensaries have trouble paying distributors, and prices have collapsed in places like California, Colorado, and even Massachusetts. As a brand, we have to be even more careful about pricing — it's much more complicated today. Bryan Fields: From 1971 to 1986, your team imported over 250 tons valued at over a billion dollars, and at age 21 you had your first million dollars in cash. What was that like? Kingpin Barry Foy: It was eye-opening, like winning the lottery — what the hell were we going to do with it all? Fortunately, I put a lot of money back into the business to keep things going and support the group and our goals. We distributed mostly west of the Mississippi — Chicago, Atlanta, New York, New Jersey, Boston, D.C. — with plenty of customers to take care of. That money at an early age prepared me for what came ten years later, when it became a drop in the bucket by comparison. It wasn't something I dwelled on — it just gave me more tools in the toolchest. We had a good time, jets, boats, cars, but I reinvested heavily because running a fleet of boats and a large crew required a lot of expenses. Bryan Fields: Even today the cannabis industry operates largely in cash, and the challenges you faced then prioritizing relationships and infrastructure mirror what organizations face now, with the government being the biggest hurdle, correct? Kingpin Barry Foy: Right, and some of that's still present today — people still deal with a largely cash business, which adds problems, robberies, lost cash. We were fortunate — we protected our cash and vetted who we did business with closely. I was in a dispensary recently and they said they couldn't take cash, I had to go to the ATM. Hopefully that changes when Congress takes this seriously and passes laws to help with banking, borrowing, and depositing — just operating normally. I've got my fingers crossed, but I don't have high hopes for much happening this year. Kellen Finney: Trust is integral to any operation, especially in the legacy or underground market — successful organizations often behave like a family. When vetting people to potentially partner with or hire today, are you using the same rubric you used back then? Kingpin Barry Foy: Good question. It goes forward from what I learned back in the day — a solid handshake, look me in the eyes, be transparent. Don't make it harder by being shady, because you won't last long — up here in Mass, if your reputation isn't up to par, it spreads quickly. Most everybody is up and up, but like any business there are shady characters, and hopefully we sort those out. Communication is key — there are a lot of moving parts, pricing, packaging, and supply chain can be shaky. We've been lucky here in Mass — people respect the legacy we bring and how we helped everyone get to where they are today, since we weren't the only ones smuggling back then. Being able to sit down, look someone eye to eye, tour their facilities, and show there's nothing to hide — that's what I look for in doing business. Bryan Fields: Let's do a quick rapid fire. True or false — you can be both a gentleman and a smuggler. Kingpin Barry Foy: True. Bryan Fields: Favorite purchased item, good or toy, during your smuggling days? Kingpin Barry Foy: Porsches — all of them. Bryan Fields: Best weed you've ever smoked? Kingpin Barry Foy: Blue Dream. Bryan Fields: Product or idea you always wanted to make happen but never could? Kingpin Barry Foy: I'm still chasing it — old school hash. Bryan Fields: Bigger challenge — smuggling hundreds of tons and avoiding five government agencies, or compliance in the legal cannabis industry? Kingpin Barry Foy: That's easy — compliance. Bryan Fields: Most beautiful place you've ever visited? Kingpin Barry Foy: I always thought St. Barts, down in the Caribbean, was one of the most beautiful places I'd ever been. Bryan Fields: Dream smoking session, three people, dead or alive? Kingpin Barry Foy: Jimi Hendrix would be one for sure. Jimi Hendrix and Will Ferrell would be my favorite two of three. Bryan Fields: Any country where you felt like with money and relationships you could get around anything? Kingpin Barry Foy: The Bahamas. Bryan Fields: True or false — in Lebanon you paid both sides, military and rebels, long enough to load your boat? Kingpin Barry Foy: That's true. Bryan Fields: Was that easy or hard? Kingpin Barry Foy: It went through connections we had there — they were given money, and when it was time to load, both sides understood they'd get paid, so they'd stop. That shows you what money can do — pretty much anything. Bryan Fields: Has operating in the legal cannabis market surprised you? Kingpin Barry Foy: Yeah — it took me a while to adjust to being able to talk about it in the open. It was a slow-coming surprise. Bryan Fields: When someone reaches for your brand, what do you want them to experience? Kingpin Barry Foy: Quality would be at the top of the list, and options. We're producing vape carts, eighths, pre-rolls, and a concentrate coming out in the next couple months. I want people to have choices — premium choice is how I'd describe it. Bryan Fields: Are there any other future states you're looking at, besides New Mexico? Kingpin Barry Foy: We've looked at Missouri — a very good business state, but difficult to get into. We'd love to be in New York and New Jersey when things come together — they're a little scattered right now. Kellen Finney: Scattered is probably the nicest way I've heard someone describe the New York market. Kingpin Barry Foy: Very polite. It's thriving — it just depends on how you define thriving. Bryan Fields: I don't own a bodega there, so I can't tell you. Kingpin Barry Foy: Ohio just came on — a huge state, 12 million people. We've also looked at New York, New Jersey, and Maryland — Maryland's a very successful state with some very good, well-organized companies. We love Florida, because I'm a Southeast, South Carolina guy, and it would be a natural fit — hopefully they'll get on the ballot in '24. We've always wanted South Carolina to legalize, but God knows when that'll happen. Bryan Fields: Is one benefit of Florida the ability to sail ten days to Jamaica? Kingpin Barry Foy: That's what made Florida a good jumping-off point back in the day — that ten-day trip was on a small boat when I was on the boats myself, a hell of a trip. Later we had much faster boats. Florida's the number two medical state in the country, and I think it'll be a huge rec state given all the tourists — a natural place to consume, beautiful weather. I'd like Gentleman Smugglers to be in every state — I think it's possible we'll be in two or three more states in '24. Bryan Fields: Are there any aspirations to bring in some of your older suppliers or vendors for a connected global cannabis trade? Kingpin Barry Foy: Colombia exports quite a bit to Europe already. I'd like to be in a global market myself — I know several people in that space and we've had discussions, so it could happen down the road. Cannabis has so many opportunities once we get past current restraints and can operate as a normal business. I think globally we'll be there one day, and I hope Gentleman Smugglers will be back in that game too. Bryan Fields: Who had better cannabis back in the day — Jamaica or Colombia? Kingpin Barry Foy: I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings — they had different qualities. We always had Colombian Gold or Santa Marta Gold grown in the Sierra Nevadas, and Jamaica has its own mountainous growing regions. Back then there were really only two, so it's a tossup for me. Bryan Fields: That was a good diplomatic answer. Kingpin Barry Foy: The best one was the best price, whatever we had at the time. I still occasionally get some Jamaican Lamb's Bread, and you can still get Colombian Gold seeds today. We've thought about incorporating some old-school strains like that down the road with Gentleman Smugglers. Bryan Fields: Looking back on your journey, is there one story that still makes you laugh, thinking back on it? Kingpin Barry Foy: Usually it involves almost getting caught back in the smuggling days and sliding away at the last second — it happened so many times. Eventually somebody gave the feds the alias I was using, and that's how they finally ran me down, but there were many close calls before that. On the Canadian border they had me — I asked for the restroom, which was outside, and saw them searching the car, so I slipped out the bathroom door into farmland and cow pastures with dogs and motorbikes chasing me. I spent a couple of days eluding them, sleeping outside, eating caterpillars, before making it back into New York on foot. That was true adventure — beating the man while everybody involved got fired for having their hands on me and letting me go. Bryan Fields: What's the most expensive lesson you've ever learned from getting caught? Kingpin Barry Foy: Without a doubt, it cut my supply and my money, and then the lawyers lined up, making promises and taking your money. That was probably the biggest loss ever, but Gentleman Smugglers is back, and we're here to stay — it's a daily thing to stay on top of it. Cannabis stocks and the big MSOs haven't fared well lately, showing the business is in flux. We've been figuring this out together since before this podcast even existed, back in the '70s and '80s, and we'll keep figuring it out until we get it right — operating as normal businesses instead of being regulated to death. Bryan Fields: If you could put anything on a billboard to reach billions of people, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Kingpin Barry Foy: Free all the cannabis prisoners right now. I'd put an old jailhouse key on that billboard — Gentleman Smugglers' job would be to unlock the door and let all cannabis prisoners out today. Bryan Fields: Perfectly said. Prediction time — where do you think will be a major cannabis hotspot in the next 15 years? Kingpin Barry Foy: I think Europe will be huge, as well as South America. Europeans are just now starting to crack the code and come online with how most people in this country are thinking. We're natural trading partners with Europe, and that's where I'd like to concentrate in the coming years. Kellen Finney: I'll say Asia — partly because of headlines about Japan firing up its medical program. China has a massive economy and tech culture, and there's the Golden Triangle, which has supplied drugs and cannabis globally for a long time, similar to our Emerald Triangle. A lot of middle-aged tech workers with disposable income could be ripe for cannabis as a stress reliever. Bryan Fields: What do you think, Barry, do you want to comment? Kingpin Barry Foy: My only thought is that the Chinese government is very difficult as far as what they'll let people do — speaking of being oppressive. But I think the rest of Asia is wide open. The whole world is really under a cannabis watch right now. Kellen Finney: Yeah, I agree Asia has a lot of those things in place — Japan, Tokyo alone has 20 million people. Kingpin Barry Foy: When you speak of Japan, I think that's a bigger, or sooner, possibility than China. Bryan Fields: I'm surprised none of you took the easy, obvious ones — I'll take Jamaica. Given its history, culture, and proximity to other markets we discussed, plus the climate, I think it could be an exploding opportunity for the industry. Kingpin Barry Foy: I think you're right, and it's already kind of that way — you can go there and cannabis is everywhere, and they're fairly loose about consumption. It has a rich history of cannabis, and we have great memories from going there in the early days. Bryan Fields: Yeah, I think we all do. Barry, for listeners who want to buy Gentleman Smugglers products, where can they find you? Kingpin Barry Foy: Go to our website, we have a locator — we're in Massachusetts right now, soon hopefully New Mexico. It's on gentlemansmugglers.com. We're close to 60 dispensaries in Massachusetts, so there's probably one near you. Bryan Fields: Awesome, we'll link all that in the show notes. Thanks for taking the time, this was fun. Kingpin Barry Foy: Hey man, I enjoyed it. Good seeing y'all, nice meeting you, and I hope to see you in person.