Do You Have the Cannabis DNA? ft. Kmesh

Do You Have Cannabis DNA? ft. Kmesh

Kmesh: These companies will really start to take talent seriously, because when those big boys come in, so to speak, it's going to be about who's on your team. It's going to be about the talent, and it's going to be about what's in the IP that those people on your team have. Bryan Fields: What's up, guys, welcome back to another episode of The Dime. I'm Bryan Fields, and with me as always is Kellan. This week we've got a very special guest, Kmesh, the cannabis industry career coach. Kmesh, thanks for taking the time — how are you doing today? Kmesh: I'm doing well, I'm glad to be here. I'm already laughing a lot, which is my favorite thing to do, especially because I work in the cannabis industry, and if you don't have a sense of humor you will not be here long. So very, very glad to be joining you today. Bryan Fields: Excited to have you. And as Kellan may have been trying to prime our guest here to push her towards a little East Coast-West Coast battle — Kellan, how are you doing today? Kellan: I'm doing well, and I was just trying to find out if Kmesh has a special place in her heart for the West Coast. Kmesh: Yeah, I do, I do. Manhattan Beach has a special place in my heart, because that's the home of, and where the office for, Flower Hire lives, and Flower Hire is part of my family — my work family — where I was for many, many years. I had the great pleasure of spending time in Manhattan Beach, which for a Philly girl is pretty much paradise. So yes, lots of friends and cannabis colleagues in NorCal and SoCal — lots of love. But I've also been working in professional cannabis for five years out of my home office in Philadelphia, so it's kind of an interesting testament to the national nature of the industry. Bryan Fields: I just want to confirm a few things for the record — that was a leading question by you, Kellan. Kmesh is from Philly and is in Philly, which would make her East Coast. Kmesh: It's true. Bryan Fields: For our listeners, can you give a little background about yourself and your journey into the cannabis space? Kmesh: Yeah sure, so I've been in the cannabis industry, my friends, coming up on six years now, believe it or not. The last five of those years I've spent in the areas of talent acquisition and human capital management — which, for those of us not speaking corporate-ese, really just means I'm a recruiter. Like many people, I've fallen in love with this industry. I talk about passion, purpose, and profit as the things I think folks who succeed in this industry have at the center, but I came into it because, like most folks, I was totally blown away by the potential to heal people with a holistic medicine, and mind-boggled by what we were taught in the War on Drugs — being a child in the '80s, being told one thing, and then learning, oh my god, cannabis is medicine. It blew my whole mind and my whole person wide open. Then, like most folks, I found my niche and really fell in love with the people in this industry. Like I said to Bryan — he asked how I was, and I said, I don't know what day it is, I don't know what season it is, I just know I work in cannabis. Kellan: How much has it changed since the early days? Kmesh: You know, the thing is, early days is different for everybody. For some people, early days is pre-Prop 215 in California — way back. For me, early days was 2018, and for a Philly girl, I was a pioneer. Nobody was talking about it. Pennsylvania's medical market opened in 2016, but people in Pennsylvania — even me, when I started learning about it in 2017 — didn't know we had legal dispensaries. That's how big the education and marketing gap was. So I'd say from 2018 to 2024, it's night and day. Now people — family members, friends — are calling me to tell me about cannabis, asking how do I get into the cannabis industry, do you sell weed? Whereas when I started and told people what I was doing, their jaws were on the floor. It's been a super big sea change on the East Coast, for sure. Kellan: I think that's really well described, because sometimes people forget that the wave happens in pockets. For someone like myself here in New York, the industry is still very, very new. Whether we legalized last year or this year, it's hard to tell the difference because we're still figuring it out as we go. But I think what you described is perfect. Bryan Fields: I want to talk about the transition — when you first got into the industry you were doing executive recruiting and leadership placement. I'd love to hear how that became industry coaching. Kmesh: Sure, so I'll give a little background on Flower Hire and the work we did there. Flower Hire is one of the leading executive search firms in cannabis, focused exclusively on six-figure cannabis jobs nationally — leadership, strategic hires moving up the corporate ladder: manager, director, VP, and C-level roles for licensed operators, MSOs, single-state operators, and well-funded ancillary companies like Hawthorne Gardening and lighting companies that still have booths at MJBizCon. David Belsky founded Flower Hire in 2017, and I joined in 2020. By the time I left in 2023, we'd made over a thousand strategic hires into the industry at that manager-director-VP-C level, and personally I placed over a hundred of those people. What I learned through that process was how much people in cannabis needed to understand about what it meant to work in cannabis, because there was no one to guide them. My inbox was flooded — Kmesh, can you look at my resume? Kmesh, how much did I get paid for this position? Kmesh, I got turned down, why? So we started defining what it means to be a professional cannabis executive and entrepreneur: what skills you need, what a cannabis career arc looks like, whether you start as a budtender or a lab tech or seasonal harvest help, how you grow into a head grower role. I became fascinated with that process, and in May of this year I decided this professional development work deserved its own service line, so I launched KmeshCan, where I do career coaching for cannabis executives. Bryan Fields: Can you give an example of the skills you look for, since it's so unique and dependent on the state and the organization? Kmesh: I think more about personality and the nature of people than transferable skills. Transferable skills matter, and the industry is so vast that any skill set can find a fit, whether on the license side or ancillary side — it's a huge industry, we need all kinds of minds in the room. But I think of it in terms of what we used to call, at Flower Hire, 'cannabis DNA.' It's a personality type and perspective: scrappiness, willingness to learn on your feet, resourcefulness, creativity, a glass-half-full outlook. We talk about 'building in quicksand' — you build the whole thing, then compliance changes, funding falls out, and it washes away, and you have to rebuild with the same veracity and enthusiasm. When people call me, that's the first thing we talk about — do you have these things, have you taken a personality test lately? I'll hear from accountants at the Big Four who want to come into cannabis, and I've hired controllers, CFOs, and FP&A people, but not directly from the Big Four — they need startup experience on top of that, because the industry is too tenuous and fast-paced. Kellan: In the early days, were you doing a lot of screening surveys, almost like a 23andMe for cannabis DNA? Kmesh: No, we didn't do that — we just hired people. If you had the transferable skills, we thought you'd get the job. But what we learned over the years was that even people with amazing skills — say, someone who ran operations for Driscoll's, an incredible operational leader with SOPs, KPIs, maybe Lean Six Sigma — we'd hire them into a big new grow thinking they were perfect, and three, six, twelve months later, they were gone, because they didn't have that cannabis DNA. That's when we started building behavioral questions into our interviews: have you worked in a hypergrowth startup, have you built something from scratch with just you and one other person on a lean budget, how did that feel? I always say, if you're an executive and you haven't changed your own printer ink in three years, you're not a fit for cannabis. I want you to love the plant, buy the products, help destigmatize it, tell your friends — but I don't want you working in the industry at the executive level right now, because we need people cut from a different cloth: startup people, innovative people, people who are fast on their feet, self-aware about what they're good and not good at, and who know their values. This is a complex, confusing space because of the black and gray markets, social equity and justice issues — so I look for people with strong values, whether that's connection to the healing power of the plant, the wealth-generation movement for communities of color, or wanting to do something meaningful. Wanting to make money is fine too, but 'it seems fun, everyone's talking about it' isn't a great reason. Bryan Fields: I caught myself recently in a conversation with someone eager to enter the industry, not wanting to be the negative one telling them they might not make it, even though they were approaching an obstacle they might not overcome. You can have skills and education, but without the right personality to pick yourself up every day, it's hard. Kmesh: That's why I bring up cannabis DNA. One of the first things I ask people to do is take a personality test — DISC, Myers-Briggs, StrengthsFinder — and see how you score. Bryan Fields: What are you looking for in those tests? Kmesh: Part of it is whether you're open for the adventure, in it for the journey. Some personalities need a clear, specific path to a goal — if that's you, you won't do well in this industry, because nobody knows where it's going. We talk about 'cannabis dog years' — every year feels like seven, and no one can plan more than one quarter in advance. You need a personality that can hold both truths: things feel like they take forever, yet change so fast. If you're not that kind of person, I say support the industry — buy product, share with friends — but don't invest, unless you find a founder with a smart deck and numbers that make sense. Kellan: When did you decide to transition from recruiting to coaching? I imagine you placed people, the relationships kept building, and you found yourself giving more advice. Kmesh: Totally — it was really just people calling me, needing more help, and legitimately needing it. Every other industry has career coaches and leadership development, especially in startups — Bill Campbell, who wrote The Trillion Dollar Coach, is a great example. It made sense people would come back to me after being placed, then maybe laid off, and want to talk about their resume or what roles might fit. People need more than fifteen minutes, especially since there's no roadmap — org charts differ completely across MSOs depending on their asset footprint and founders; some don't even have an org chart or an HR person. Last year at Flower Hire we placed a hundred different job titles because there's no standardization yet. People started asking to talk on nights and weekends, and I help clients develop what I call a 'cannabis leadership story' — why you came into the industry, what you've accomplished, your skills and experiences, and how you see yourself serving the industry going forward — because in this fast-moving industry you only get a few minutes to make an impression, and articulating that story matters even more than a resume or LinkedIn. Eventually I realized I wasn't sleeping or eating, recruiting all day and coaching all night, so I decided to do this full time. Bryan Fields: I want to highlight that everyone here is building things with no roadmap, and each company and state operates differently, so you might be successful in one role and be a complete non-fit somewhere else because of culture, positioning, expectations. How important is it for you to understand a company's inner workings and culture to know what personality or skills will succeed there? Kmesh: That's a nuanced question, because a lot of these companies don't look great right now from a fundamentals or PR perspective. I see myself as an advocate for the industry when speaking to outsiders, but with industry insiders there's a level of candor that's important right now — founders being honest about their company's fiscal and cultural health, including toxicity, which is a real problem. I tell my clients to do their homework and research companies rather than just applying to a job listing, because you might jump from the frying pan into the fire. Smaller single-state operators in newer markets like Maryland and New Jersey — one or two founders, twenty to forty people — are great places to join and help shape culture. Bryan Fields: There's not always a clear answer, because it's important to understand personality fit — some people take a job assuming they'll do X, Y, and Z, but the team lacks the resources or tools, and instead you're doing X, Y, Z, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, because that's cannabis — zero-based budgeting, fighting for every dollar. Kmesh: A hundred percent. People come from a company full of problems and fantasize that a new company will be different — but friend, it's still cannabis. These are systemic issues, not one bad company or CEO, largely a result of federal inaction in my opinion. I'm not saying federal legalization solves everything, but I do think the problems of the last twelve to twenty-four months in our older markets — year nine or ten — and newer markets — year three to six — trace back to that. I want candidates to be eyes wide open and as selective about choosing where they work as companies are about choosing them, especially at the executive level, where there needs to be alignment of vision. If there are 'rats in the lab,' literally or metaphorically, don't let your ops leader find out on the last interview — share the challenges, and then explain what you're doing to fix them, and ask about leadership, funding, turnover, and culture in interviews. Bryan Fields: Is there a common issue you help people through across roles? Kmesh: Two big issues. The first is burnout — with a capital B — and the problem is some people don't even know they're burned out. It doesn't necessarily mean quitting; some executives have taken a six-month or year-long sabbatical and come back completely renewed, which is brilliant if you're in a position to do it. If not, there are ways to deal with burnout without leaving your job — self-care, time management, boundaries. Bryan Fields: I think people forget that leaders making hard decisions and putting out fires every day are human, and the constant negativity and uncertainty is taxing — after a while it's natural for people to become difficult to work with or agitated, especially when they have to look at the books and decide who to lay off to make payroll. There's not a lot of empathy right now for cannabis founders, especially with cannabis stocks in the dumps. Kellan: I wonder if some outside-industry hires with impressive backgrounds who are struggling mightily aren't a negative mark on them — it could just be a mismatch of opportunity and role — and I'm fearful the industry pushes them out or they leave for a cushier job, when some of those individuals could benefit the industry long term. Kmesh: I've seen a lot of those people leave — I've hired them and seen them leave, and they've sent me nice notes apologizing that they couldn't hack it. What I'd rather see is training, educating, and developing our own people — the way larger companies invest in learning and development and internal coaching. That's where I'd love to see KmeshCan go: teams inside cannabis companies getting ongoing support on time management, mental health, and team dynamics. I'm not as worried about losing big executives; if people have real cannabis DNA and a real reason to be here, they stay. I want an industry with a lot more heart than tech. I believe in the healing power of this plant, and if we scale properly we can heal a lot of people and get people off opioids and alcohol, while making money along the way — including bringing wealth back to communities of color harmed by the drug war. Bryan Fields: What's the most expensive lesson you've ever learned? Kmesh: I had to get an MBA to learn Excel — that's the one that comes to mind, every month I pay Sallie Mae for that lesson. Bryan Fields: For me, it was recognizing that unless Kellan and I are directly attached to the success of a project and pulling the wagon ourselves, it's never going to move at the pace we expect. We have a very high bar, and if people aren't moving at that pace or communicating at that speed, things just don't work out — that's a culture-fit lesson you only learn by being in it together. Kmesh: Totally. It's beautiful that you two have such a strong, resilient partnership. Bryan Fields: Maybe a little manic in us, but crazy people hang out with crazy people. Kmesh: Are you all growing your team? I'm curious, because right now KmeshCan is just me — I'm the founder and CEO with an amazing team of vendors, working closely with the Flower Hire ecosystem and other recruiters, payroll providers, and PEOs, but no other full-time employees. What's it like for you two building a team? Bryan Fields: We need people with a very specific mindset — you can't have someone who thinks 'someone else will do this' or 'that's not my job,' especially here, because every day you have to figure out the unknown and push it forward. It's more a mentality than a skill, and I learned the hard way that some people say things but can't back them up with actions — you have to judge people by what they do, not what they say. Kellan: The other stark issue from a growth perspective is that the right hires at certain company stages usually come with a lot of education and credentials, and with that come salary expectations that don't always match what this industry can offer, so it becomes a hard sell — it's a long patience game. But personality is clear — when you meet someone like Kmesh, you know right away she's different, she fits into 'the group,' and that recognition of the same kind of positive crazy is what gives these conversations energy. Bryan Fields: No one is going to tell you how to do it, and it doesn't matter how many times people say no — at the end of the day it's your responsibility to push the ball forward every day. You can cry for twenty minutes on the sideline, which I do regularly, and then get back in there. Kmesh: Crying is self-care, Bryan. Bryan Fields: You're the first guest to ask us a question back in 200 episodes. Kmesh: We should do another episode where I ask you all the questions. Okay, I have a few more for you: dream smoking session, three people dead or alive? Bryan Fields: Dream smoking session, three people dead or alive? Kmesh: Oh my god, that's such a hard question. I'd definitely want to smoke a joint with Mahatma Gandhi. They're probably all going to be civil rights leaders — there's a Jewish female socialist named Emma Goldman I think would be a great smoke, I'd learn and hear so much. And Martin Luther King. It sounds cliché, but those are the people who changed society in meaningful, big ways, and I believe cannabis has the potential to do the same. I still believe in the power of this plant to bring deep, wide healing, and I still believe in the possibility of wealth generation and reparations for communities of color impacted by the drug war — that's my why. Kellan: When you got started in your journey with cannabis, what did you get right, and what did you get wrong? Kmesh: Great question, I'm adding that to my own coaching questions. What I got right was knowing my why. Before cannabis, I was a publisher of a natural health and wellness magazine and online marketing company, and one of my biggest advertisers was a CBD company — this was 2017, and I thought we were going to get arrested, I knew nothing. That advertiser started my education about the plant and the industry's potential. At the same time, my husband at the time was in law school learning about mass incarceration and prison overcrowding — the city of Philadelphia was being sued over it — and he read Michelle Alexander's book The New Jim Crow, which became foundational to the mass incarceration movement. When I put holistic health and wellness together with what he was learning about the drug war and mass incarceration, that's when I decided this is what I wanted to do. So I got the why right, and I still believe in it. What I got wrong was thinking it would be fast — that federal legality would be a done deal by now, that the money would come quickly. I didn't understand how complex standing up this industry in the face of federal illegality really is. Even now, as a cannabis business owner myself, an ancillary business, banking has become an issue — I've been called up by a bank I've banked with for years giving me a hard time for being in a plant-touching-adjacent business, which is really aggravating when I'm a solo woman entrepreneur doing pretty well for myself. Bryan Fields: Prediction time, Kmesh — looking ahead, how do you see leadership evolving in the cannabis industry, and what skills will be in most demand in five years? Kmesh: Five years is too far out — honestly, I don't know, because what if we get federal legality this year or next? We don't know whose voices will be loudest, who will be most organized, though we know the big players already have the most resources. Could there be a political sea change where grassroots advocacy has real impact? I don't know — look at the MRTA in New York, where we got a lot of what we wanted, but implementation has been a disaster. A year ago none of us predicted what actually happened in New York. So I think the skills will always be about leadership and resilience — people who bring themselves back to the table over and over with focus, clarity, maturity, and values, because the longer this goes on the way it has, the industry's reputation issues will persist, and companies will look for people with true leadership ability and a strong sense of purpose. Kellan: I agree, and I'd add agility and the ability to learn quickly — especially with seismic shifts happening outside cannabis, like AI, changing every work environment. Your ability to take on new skills and adapt to cannabis's ever-changing environment will be the most valuable trait. Bryan Fields: Mine might be less popular — the ability to make hard, unpopular decisions. As the industry evolves and bigger businesses with more resources and infrastructure come in, leaders will have to decide whether to sell, restructure, or reposition their business, and having the self-awareness and foresight to do that successfully is going to separate the companies that make it from those that don't. Kmesh: I agree, and it comes back to my mantra that cannabis needs leaders, and those leaders need support and training. I sometimes joke, only half-joking, 'fire your CFO, hire a chief people officer' — obviously no one's actually going to fire their CFO, but the point is there's clear documentation from places like Harvard Business School about the importance of investing in people and the cost of turnover, which is an enormous problem in this industry. I'm trying to do my small part coaching people one-on-one, plus some B2B consulting with academic institutions trying to build curriculum that matches the job market. But I hope companies will start taking talent seriously, because when the big players come in, it's going to be about who's on your team and the IP those people carry — so nurture your people, make them feel like they matter, and don't just cut all your HR people when you're trimming the P&L. Bryan Fields: Kmesh, for our listeners who want to get in touch, learn more, and get some coaching, where can they find you? Kmesh: LinkedIn, baby — LinkedIn's the place. Find me there and I'll share other web stuff, but mostly LinkedIn is where I like to talk with people, see what they're up to, before we even get on a call — everybody's cannabis leadership journey is unique, and that's part of why I'm so inspired by this work. If this resonates, or you've got a friend or colleague who's blowing up your phone losing their mind, tell them to talk to Kmesh. Bryan Fields: Awesome, we'll wrap it all up in the show notes. Thanks for taking the time, this was a lot of fun. Kmesh: Thank you both so much, this was awesome.