Lulu Tsui: Applying West Coast Lessons on the East Coast & Hard Truths in the Cannabis Industry

Lulu Tsui: Applying West Coast Lessons on the East Coast & Hard Truths in the Cannabis Industry

Bryan Fields: What's up guys, welcome back to another episode of The Dime. I'm Bryan Fields, and with me as always is Kellen Finney. This week we've got a very special guest, Lulu Tsui, co-founder of On The Revel. Lulu, thanks for taking the time. How are you doing today? Lulu Tsui: I'm doing well. As you can see, it's fall in the eastern part of the country, also called the Right Coast versus the Left Coast, and I'm excited to be chopping it up with you guys today. Bryan Fields: Excited to dive in. Kellen, just before we get started, I wanted to make it very clear which coast she said she's located on, just to put that on the record. Kellen, how are you doing? Kellen Finney: I'm doing well, Bryan, thanks for asking. We were talking about that earlier — I think there are some West Coast roots though, if you will. Lulu Tsui: I love the West Coast. My parents immigrated from mainland China with me to Eugene, Oregon, which is actually a sister city of, I think, Boulder — are you near Boulder? Kellen Finney: I'm really close to Boulder. Some people call it Boulder, but I call it Erie. Lulu Tsui: I agree, up in Eugene. It was really interesting — the folks who kind of took us under their wing, taught my parents English, babysat me, helped us acclimate to American culture, were cannabis growers and distributors. So I've had plant medicine in my life since we first landed in the United States. Then I went to school in Washington state, jumped over to New York for the first time, winter freaked me out, went to San Francisco, and I've been playing ping pong back and forth between both coasts now for almost 20 years. Bryan Fields: I love it, and it's clear to see how the idea of cannabis has percolated in your mind, but the real question is: when did you see this as more of an opportunity — a profession, something you wanted to get into? Lulu Tsui: I debated pro-cannabis legalization in mock Congress in high school, so since a very young age. But within the Legacy world, my aunties and uncles were already doing this to provide for the family, so it never really crossed my mind that it would go to such a large scale. In 2015, when adult use became legal in Washington state, my buddies from Root Sciences called me and asked if I wanted to help them fix the tech platform they were using at the time — I think it was BioTrack. There was nothing I could do because BioTrack had closed off all their APIs. So I told them, guys, I can't really do anything with this. They said, well, why don't you stay and see if there's anything you want to do in cannabis. It was all new. They're a tier-three grow and producer, so they eat their own dog food — they grow weed, they do manufacturing and processing. But the part that was really interesting to me was the machine side. My whole family is a bunch of nerds, all engineers, so I was fascinated by how you get this plant into oil, into distillate, into isolate, and now we see all this breadth of different products blended with UX/UI design. Bryan Fields: How does that transition work? Lulu Tsui: I just ask a lot of questions. I always say with user experience, you're not really an expert, you're just an expert at learning how people do things, and your whole purpose is to drive design and create tools that help people's workflow. I'm going to say some controversial things — there's really nothing new in cannabis extraction and distillation, this has been going on for years. What my guys at Root Sciences did smart was they didn't try to reinvent the wheel with R&D that breaks and takes six months to replace. They found the best global companies that already produced machines that could do what they wanted and partnered with them. If anybody knows about the Root Sciences guys, their machines are probably the Bentley of extraction and processing because they work with companies that have been nailing it in other industries for a very long time. Bryan Fields: One of my favorite things is that there's no need to reinvent the wheel in cannabis, and that's common throughout the industry. Did you have similar experiences once you got involved in the New York market and the East Coast more broadly — déjà vu flashback moments? Lulu Tsui: This is my third market, so a thousand percent. My whole thing is: if it's already been done before, go look. There's data now, you can see what products are out there, what the buying patterns are. There's so much to learn from the past. Sometimes people are so excited about cannabis that it's hard to be the "poo-poo" person, but I'm always like, you should take a trip to Washington or California and just look at the products that are out there instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every single time. Bryan Fields: I think that's so important. New York isn't the first state to legalize, and people breaking into this industry for the first time could have easily looked to the West Coast states that have already seen the maturation, the ups and downs, the stabilization and crashing of prices. Was that the goal of On The Revel — to take those learnings from the West Coast and bring them to the East Coast? Lulu Tsui: Jacobi, my co-founder, is from Colorado — he started at Mindful, one of the first verticals there. We had both designed and created tech platforms in our respective worlds, and when we met it was the first time I'd met anyone in New York actually talking intelligently about the cannabis industry. What was important for us was that we saw all the snake oil being pitched — and of course it's New York, everyone's a hustler — so we created a room where we brought the folks we'd met along the way in our respective markets to New York so the New York audience could really understand what's going on. There was a lot of chatter about advocacy and investment, but nobody was talking about ground truth, the supply-chain side. Also, having lived in New York almost 20 years, I know New York is different in terms of relationship management — it's high-touch, longer-term relationship building. On the West Coast you can run a business with Zoom calls; you can't do that here. Imagine you're courting New York like you're going to see your friend's grandma — there are old-world expectations in relationship building, but those relationships last a long time, and the sales cycle is actually shorter because it's built on trust and referrals, versus the West Coast where you're calling every single POS group and running demos through committee. Bryan Fields: I just want to point out that you just described the difference between Kellen and me perfectly. Lulu Tsui: You just have to read the room — it's so easy, and I feel like people just don't want to do that. It's a missed opportunity. Bryan Fields: Was that transition harder? Take us through the timeline — was this prior to legalization? Lulu Tsui: This was 2016. Jacobi and I just said, let's create a room and invite our friends to warm up the environment — we were seeding. We started at a co-working space Jacobi got free access to because he was the tech support guy there. It cost like $500. We filled the room with a hundred people and had ten speakers come through, and we were like, holy crap, this is amazing. It's cool to see how a lot of those speakers' careers have evolved since. Then we leveled up to a comedy club so we had a stage without having to build one out. After that, COVID hit in 2019 [2020], so we moved everything online and focused on keeping the conversations going and building a community that matched the energy of our events. In 2021–2022, right at the reopening point, we had our first in-person conference — the Revel Conference — and I had never seen butts in seats for ten hours like that. It's very rare for New Yorkers to get excited about anything, but people were scribbling notes, taking photos, nobody left their seat. It was a magical moment. From there we added a trade show. We tested two smaller trade shows this year — the first one in February, we thought it'd be about 30 people and six brands in a gymnasium, and Jacobi grudgingly agreed. We ended up with 48 of 60 licensed groups and 60 tables. I didn't even know there were 60 brands at that time. We filled that gymnasium with so much positive energy. Afterward, the farmers said, bring this upstate, so this summer we hosted the second one at Basilica Hudson — really beautiful. By then about 250 licenses had been issued; we brought in 140 licensed groups, had a sponsor charter a bus to bring retail folks from Manhattan, and had about 80 vendors — farmers, ACPs, AUCs, and brands. Then the third piece of what we do is always a community event — we held our second block party with quintessential New York summertime vibes. So it's a three-prong model: the TED Talk-style conversation events, the trade show, and a cultural event. Bryan Fields: I want to revisit the supply-chain piece — that's not recognized enough, especially from an early-market perspective. If you're opening a dispensary without established infrastructure, where else could you look to connect with vendors if not an event like yours? Lulu Tsui: From the UX and product side, we never wanted to do a conference or trade show until the market really opened, because resources are scarce in cannabis and it didn't make sense to waste people's time, energy, or money. We kept hearing from friends working with card applicants that a lot of them come from the Legacy world and don't know how to procure, and a lot of license holders have zero experience with weed at all — they didn't know how to find suppliers. On the supply side, a lot of growers and processors aren't even based in the city, so there was no directory. I actually texted regulators asking if there's a database where you can enter a license number and see the license holder — it doesn't exist yet, and I understand why, because you also want to protect people's identities from spam. So we combed through every list we could get, used spreadsheets to verify real people and real licenses, asked friends touching the card folks to spread the word, and worked with CANY — the Cannabis Association of New York — to reach their AUCs and ACPs. And boom, it became a thing. Bryan Fields: Was there a significant difference in energy between the trade show downstate versus the one upstate once more momentum had built? Lulu Tsui: Same energy, same energy, same energy — just in a larger space. Kellen Finney: Who would you say was more excited — the vendors at the trade show or the retail participants? Lulu Tsui: I heard things like it was a fire hose of leads — vendors couldn't even leave their tables. Retailers were saying, we came all the way from Long Island, or from Niagara Falls, thank you for holding this because there was no way we could actually meet the people behind the retail shops or the brands otherwise. That's the East Coast thing — you want to shake the hand of the person you're talking to and feel their energy. In New York we're so on top of each other that it hones your ability to read vibe and energy through interaction. Bryan Fields: One thing I've heard about your event is that it's the perfect blend of a cross-section of different personalities, which is a challenge in cannabis because not everyone gets highlighted the right way. How do you balance that? Lulu Tsui: We were early entrants, so we built a good reputation for being intentional with everything we do. I call a lot of conferences "beige" — beige carpet, beige walls, beige food, beige people. Jacobi and I always felt that didn't resonate with us. What I love about New York is that it's multifaceted — the West Coast is kind of one-note: you're from this part, you adopted your dog from a shelter, you recycle and compost, maybe you do a microdose regimen — it's fairly standard. On the East Coast, whatever you're interested in, you'll find someone who connects with it, and you're kind of forced to be outgoing because it's a city of Type-A personalities who go after what they want. I invite friends from fashion, TV, video, entertainment, design, art, music — crossing a lot of boundaries. Being raised around Legacy aunties and uncles also makes it easy to drop into that world and honor where I learned my information. Our team itself is multifaceted — Jacobi's a math major, Peter on our team is a neuroscientist doing experiments around gut health and disease, Saki has been a huge activist in the Northeast, Jason is a human rights attorney doing amazing work around trans rights and gay rights, and Gigi was one of the first women I met doing marketing in cannabis. We've kind of Voltroned together to reach into our respective worlds and bring people in. Bryan Fields: I think that's perfect — New York is the melting pot, so bringing all those personalities together isn't an easy feat. We've heard other people say it's the same five or six people speaking at every stage. Has there been a signature talk, or someone who blew your mind? Lulu Tsui: We've never done a call for speakers — we don't believe in that. Normally we create programming based on feedback we hear about the market and important issues that need addressing, then go through our Rolodex for who'd be a great speaker, and reach out to friends. Any speaker or performer on our stage is two degrees of separation from us, which keeps that tight energy and vibe. We also challenge speakers to bring their A-game — you get eight minutes, not twenty, and we want the audience to walk away with something educational, something inspirational, and to feel connected to you so they think, "you're my go-to person for cultivation" or "you're my go-to person for tech." As for mind-blowing — it's been a while, but early on there was a company called Ebu doing genetic mapping of strains; I think they got acquired by a bigger company, which is why you don't hear about them anymore. I'm always excited by out-of-the-box solutions. Bryan Fields: Why eight minutes, and how much due diligence do you do on speakers if they're only one or two degrees of separation? Lulu Tsui: Because I was on the supply-chain side, I'd travel with the Root Sciences guys on installations in new markets — a basement install in LA, a ten-million-dollar buildout in Maryland — so I built up a huge contact list, basically my own Rolodex, even if young people don't know what that word means anymore. If it's someone I haven't worked with directly, I want to talk to people who have worked with them before, the same way you'd do reference checks for a job candidate: are you friends, have you worked together, what did you like about working with them. Based on that data, I decide if they go on our f***-yes list or f***-no list. If anyone on our team has a hard no, we respect that without question — we trust our team members. Bryan Fields: It really shows how small the industry is and how critical reputation is for those relationships. Can you expand on why that matters even more for new markets moving forward? Lulu Tsui: A lot of people ask why new markets keep repeating the same mistakes. My hypothesis is that nobody does due diligence — from the regulatory and legislative side to the business side. "Failing up" seems to be a thing in cannabis, like every other industry. If someone's from a market that's collapsed, why are you putting them in as a decision-maker or advisor for a new market? I've said it before — please keep your rejects from other states out of New York, or any new market. That's probably not a popular sentiment, but a quick reference-check call could save months of cleanup after bad stuff happens. Bryan Fields: I think it's easier than people believe — everyone's one or two degrees from someone else, and one thing I've enjoyed about this industry is how open people are to helping others succeed, because everyone recognizes how hard this industry is and how much the outside world is fighting back. Lulu Tsui: A hundred percent. And West Coast people coming to New York should be prepared for blunt conversations. I love the West Coast lifestyle, but people on the East Coast will be upfront with you rather than passive-aggressive — be able to take it as feedback and learn from it. I've had conversations where West Coast people came in with an attitude like, "culture flows from west to east," and I said, excuse me — West Coast stoner culture, sure, but New Yorkers use cannabis to create global culture, and that's the biggest difference. If you come in with that entitlement, it tells me you're not listening or learning, and you're not ready to sit at my grandma's table. Bryan Fields: What's the difference between the gray market and the Legacy market? Lulu Tsui: The gray market in New York is actually hurting the addressable market and market share across the board. The Legacy market is folks who've been in this for a while, often for socioeconomic reasons — maybe coming out of the Vietnam War era — where it was one of the only options to make money. The gray market is still underground, but to me it's mostly opportunists who've come in through smoke shops. It's the same cycle in every market; eventually the state may shut them down, it's a whack-a-mole situation. I've seen Legacy friends in New York have to shut down — one friend told me the $50,000 to $100,000 days are gone because so many smoke shops have opened, and consumers aren't fully aware of what's going on because advertising is so limited. Bryan Fields: How does someone unfamiliar with the market tell the difference when they're inundated by smoke shops? Lulu Tsui: I think you just ask questions. New York has a certification sticker, though someone told me they've already made fake versions of those. Usually if they're selling California products or out-of-state products with California stickers, it's not legal — but I've also heard of stores with the same fake verification selling actual New York brands, so it's tricky and I don't have a clean answer. My other company, the Cannabis Media Council, created a PSA campaign called "I'm High Right Now" to get clearer, more relatable information out there instead of the dry government-science style messaging. Bryan Fields: Can you share more about the Cannabis Media Council and hint at what's happening around November? Lulu Tsui: My co-founders are Joyce Sonali, who runs an amazing functional farm called Sonoma Hills Farm in Sonoma County — hemp, wheat, cows, the whole thing — and Amy Dennison, probably the most informed person in cannabis marketing and advertising, period. They brought me in about a year and a half ago because it's important to prepare mainstream media and journalists for when cannabis becomes federally legal, and to help cannabis and cannabinoid companies learn how to engage with mainstream media. We formed a partnership with Hearst, among a couple others I can't name yet. I can't talk about November 8th specifically, but I'll say it involves a full 50-state, 24-hour takeover of a site a lot of people visit with our "I'm High Right Now" campaign. Bryan Fields: What's your favorite under-the-radar brand or spot in New York? Lulu Tsui: Chris's pizza and cannabis lounge — have you been, Bryan? Bryan Fields: I have not been yet, I was hoping his Babylon location would open. Lulu Tsui: Come to our industry night — we're starting Revel Industry Night on Fridays, and Chris has been generous letting us host at his lounge; our first one is on the 26th. I love that intersection because it's eye-opening for people who've assumed cannabis looks a certain way — it's a beautiful environment. He introduced cannabis into something that already exists, like having dinner with friends, so it's not just a big smoke-out; you can bring people who don't consume into the fold too. Everyone feels comfortable, it's visually beautiful, the staff is super friendly, and it normalizes the experience. As for brands, it's tough because the weed is so strong these days — I'm a two-to-five milligram girl and I've gone more down the psychedelics road, which is a conversation for another time. Bryan Fields: Dream smoking session, three people dead or alive? Lulu Tsui: Maya Angelou, Mary J. Blige for sure, and my mom. Bryan Fields: What's the most expensive lesson you've learned? Lulu Tsui: Due diligence. My biggest six-figure lesson was forming a partnership with the wrong people and having to pay lawyers to disengage. Everything I preach about due diligence now are lessons I wish someone had told me back then. Bryan Fields: When you started your journey in cannabis, what did you get right, and what did you get wrong? Lulu Tsui: I got it right working with the Root Sciences guys — I call them my brothers, we met at 19 and they became family, people who are open and share ideas rather than keeping things close to the chest. On the wrong side, I once got swayed raising money for a tech platform by people's résumés and industry reputation. In cannabis, if someone comes in as C-suite leadership who isn't willing to roll up their sleeves, that's a problem, because unlike other industries, there usually isn't a team in place yet to execute for them. I got burned by people who expected a team and it got awkward. The biggest lesson: don't get swayed purely by someone's outside experience. Bryan Fields: I always ask people who've come from highly established roles outside cannabis whether this industry was harder or easier than they expected. Lulu Tsui: Harder, every single time. What's beautiful about the cannabis industry is that there are no rules, and as an immigrant, that feels like the American dream to me right now — you can carve your own path because there are no rules. At the same time, coming from user experience and working with Enterprise, not having rules, SOPs, or standard protocols is the most frustrating thing ever. Bryan Fields: Prediction time — what's one thing that can be done immediately to incorporate Legacy operators into regulated markets? Lulu Tsui: Grandfather them into delivery services, and pair them with business people — someone who's an expert in New York who can get things done, paired with someone from another market who has cannabis experience, with a compensation structure based on shared KPIs and metrics. Kellen Finney: I'd say lower the barrier to entry and increase the number of licenses — make it close to infinite. Charge something like $10,000 so people take it seriously, but lower the barriers around real estate and other requirements to create a more level playing field and let the best operators win, even though it'll be a nightmare at first. Bryan Fields: I think both those answers are great. All I can think about is that people in the city have been getting weed delivered to their apartments forever, so I don't know how that expectation ever changes. Pairing Legacy operators with established players, blending their talent and experience with proper safety regulation, is the balance I hope the market continues to find. Lulu Tsui: Can I roll back — you asked about Strain Gang New York earlier. They're growers and cultivators — Smokers Club, Aster Club, Vega, Tainted BK — a lot of friends of ours. Their product is so strong, I'm like, I need the two-milligram version, please make it lighter for me. Bryan Fields: Lulu, for our listeners who want to get in touch or attend your events, where can they find more information? Lulu Tsui: You can always email me — I'm Lulu at ontherevel.com. Our whole team is very approachable. We're also on Instagram, and our social team will get back to you. Come to our industry night, come meet the folks — we love creating rooms where good people can come together, be approachable, enjoy conversation, products, food and drink, and connect over cannabis the old-world way. Bryan Fields: Love it. Looking forward to it — this was a lot of fun. Thanks for taking the time.